ON HEAVEN, FIRE, AND OTHER MATTERS

After death

10/10/2003

“God is an example of something transcendent.  God cannot be contained in the spiritual world or the physical world, but bursts through, into and beyond, both,” Fr Gresham said.

Commenting on an article about N T Wright’s resurrection views, Fr Gresham wasn’t happy with the idea of a person being in a state of peaceful happiness until being resurrected in a glorified body at the second coming.

Fr Gresham thought we would develop a spiritual body, sometimes slowly, after death. This body would be a glorified body, just as Christ’s was between his resurrection and ascension. This body would be perfect and wouldn’t age, and would have increased powers, just as Christ had when he appeared in locked rooms during those post-crucifixion days.

Heaven, and when we die

(01/06/2000) (Ascension Day)

This occurred during Fr Gresham's retirement, when we used to go in my car to St Mary's, Bourne Street (the church Fr Gresham attended in his retirement) for services on Holy Days of Obligation that fell during the week. On Sundays he went to St Mary's in a taxi, and I went elsewhere. 

I don't know who gave the sermon. I noted down from the service, "Our life is hid with Christ. Christ has gone into heaven, taking our life with him. So we have entered heaven with Christ."

Fr Gresham and I must have spoken about it afterwards, because I have then noted Fr Gresham explaining, "Heaven is the invisible aspect of the visible world around us. When we die, heaven comes to us. We don't go up to heaven. When we die there ceases to be a divide between the visible and the invisible world. We enter the invisible world of heaven."

(2021 comment:- This accords with my memory of him saying on a number of occasions that "heaven is the most real thing there is". and that "it is right beside us here and now".)

Communication in heaven

04/02/2004
Fr Gresham said, "I am prepared to believe in a sort of mental communication when we come to heaven, so that we can understand each other fully. Whereas at present we can't."

On Statues

26/02/2004

Fr Gresham said he had no statues in his church, St Paul's, Bow Common. He said it was "difficult to pray before artistically good statues, and if they were not good statues, well then ..."

In retirement he lived in one of the alms-houses attached to St James church, Islington. He said the statue of St James in the church there was a good one, made in Spain (or in the Spanish style?). When I subsequently saw it, I liked it. 

I remember it as being of a robed man with a wiry physique wearing a hat and walking. It had a sense of flowing movement and purpose. But I only saw it once, and sometimes, if you only see something once, you can misremember details. But perhaps the impression you gain is correct?

Exorcism, Fr Fitzgerald, and the Cure D'Ars

10/10/2003

“There was a priest at Mirfield, Fr Fitzgerald, who could deal with ghosts or spirits. He didn’t see them clearly, but saw them as a sort of blue light. Once he was brought in and left alone in a room where there was trouble. Afterwards he said he had heard the deceased priest’s confession, and that there would be no more visitations, and there were none."

"People who have worked overseas in countries where a lot of voodoo or witchcraft is practiced have said this business of fighting against the devil is real. Exorcism is a fearful, frightful business. It involves mental struggle, sometimes for many hours. You need someone who is mentally strong to engage in it. There was a case where a group of people got involved with exorcisms, and someone committed suicide because of it."

"All his life St John de Vianney (Cure d'Ars) had to fight against the devil, and the devil in people. When he was first entering the town of Ars his donkey stopped, and he realised it was the devil blocking the way. He prayed, and exorcised it, and went on."

"When he first went into church a crippled boy came to the door. The Cure d'Ars  beckoned him to the altar, and as the boy proceeded up the aisle he was able to discard his crutches and walk unaided. This impressed the villagers, who had originally stoned the priest, and got them attending church." 

"St John won them all over except the village schoolmaster, who resisted. But when St John was on his deathbed, in a room within the church, the schoolmaster saw devils circling around its tower and then the sun came out and the shadow of the cross fell on them, and the devils disappeared and were gone. At this moment the schoolmaster was converted, and St John was found to have died."

The St Paul's Bow Common Icon of 'St Paul with St Luke'

(25-01-1999)

In his homily, at the bestowing of the icon of 'St Paul with St Luke', at St Paul’s church, Bow Common, Fr Gresham told us it was given in memory of Winnie, his former housekeeper. He remembered when Winnie showed love, as she ministered to an alcoholic woman who called at the vicarage late one evening. She undressed, gave a nightie to, and kissed the woman, as she put her to bed.

"When we look at the Icon," he said, "we are to remember Paul & Luke in prison. It was designed for a gloomy place/corner, so it doesn't need special lighting." He added that, "Objects are made sacred by the use to which they are put."  

"The conversion of St Paul was the second most important event, after Pentecost, in the Church’s history. It allowed Christianity to break out, through Paul’s journeys and teachings, of Judaism and become the religion of all nations."  

(2025 note re icon:- The Icon has "Winnie Wyatt loved this place" written as a tribute to Winnie, visible on the frame. It was put up on the wall near the back left corner of the church, viewed from the altar, which is a dim area of the church. Fr Gresham discovered, after his time there, that a small spotlight had been set up to illuminate the icon. But he was no longer in a position to do anything about it. 

Now, in 2025, that corner of the church is filled with bundles of merchandise for the longstanding and regular Tuesday bazaar, which carries on from Fr Gresham's time ("it can be a sort of out-reach" he commented when I was there), and was run by Mary McKenzie and Isabel Rowe. The lady who runs it now said the spirit of those two, Mary and Isabel, lives on, and indeed the Church is today a friendly and welcoming community. 

I may be wrong, but I don't think Fr Gresham would have stood for the goods being stored in the church, though. He once disconsolately commented, after a big batch of items from the bazaar appeared in the hall, "I'll put some sheets over them". They did take up quite a bit of space. He supported the weekly bazaar, but he wasn't happy that even the church hall was thus colonised.

However, regarding the icon; presumably because that dim corner is now a storage area, it is now on the wall near the entrance into the body of the church, by the font. This is a busier spot. You tend to walk through it, looking towards the centrally located sanctuary where the main altar is top-lit by the roof lantern windows. Perhaps the icon will not work well in this new position?

Mothering Sunday

Fr Gresham said, "Phyllis Dent invented Mothering Sunday to brighten up Sunday schools. It is probably linked with apprentices and maids in service. Once the worst of the winter weather was over, ie by the 4th Sunday in Lent, they were given a Sunday off to visit their mothers, who might be 10 miles away in a neighbouring village, and the mother's baked a cake for the occasion.

The reading used to be from Galatians, a difficult meaning about Jerusalem being mother of us all. Jerusalem stands for the Kingdom of God, of which we are inheritors, not heirs, because we actually possess it, or are members of it, upon our baptism. So we possess it now. Heirs expect to possess something in the future.

Also the prayers at the beginning and before communion mention, are about, Jerusalem.  Also the psalm is the one about 'we sat down by waters of Babylon'. It  mentions Jerusalem.

In America a woman invented Mother's Day to commemorate the birthday or the day of death of her own mother, then she went about publicising it. And the Americans, loving anything sentimental, accepted it. It is now on the 1st of June or July or something, and has no link with tradition at all."

On dealing with boys

10/10/2003

Fr Gresham remembers that at Mirfield they were given a talk about dealing with boys.  "Don't romp with them, don't try to enter their world, unless you are invited in momentarily. If a boy needed somewhere to stay give up your bed for him, and you sleep on the floor in a different room. And when you get to forty, chuck it!", 

And on relationships

10/10/2023

“Separate real relationships exist, such as between brothers and sisters, or between parents and children. This is a fact, and acceptable, and real. Relationships can have different natures."

Hell-Fire or Fire?

03/07/2003

"The Catholic Church makes a lot of hell, but the Gospels say little about it. The point of the Lazarus story was the sin of unbrotherliness, not the doctrine of hell.

Did God create us and the world so that some can be saved and go to heaven, and others can go to hell? The Catholic catechism still says that. But the best of the Catholics aren't happy about it.

Hitler, for instance, by the end had become so evil, had done so much evil, that he had destroyed his own personality, so he had ceased to exist. I can imagine that a person can destroy his own personality so he ceases to exist. But for most people, God can sort them out over eternity. Those who are evil but have redeeming features can change through eternity.

What does the Church preach? Jesus said he comes to preach fire. When was that last heard from the pulpit? Hell-fire, yes. But Jesus didn't say that. He said fire. That would change us, so we would change ourselves, and the world around us."

Islam

(02/2004)

Fr Gresham had recently been in hospital, and had seen the young man who pushed him in a wheelchair take out and study his Koran when they had had a few minutes to wait somewhere.

Fr Gresham said he has read the Koran through twice. He thought the chapters were repetitive, and that there was a lot about hell-fire in them. "They learn the Koran, they memorise it. The Koran is frightening in some ways." 

(03/02/2000)                                                                                                                "It is possible to get a religious fanaticism. The Muslim extremists, for instance. The trouble is, they believe it. If they didn't believe it they wouldn't take it so seriously."

(remembered in 2021)

On another occasion, I remember he said the children are made to memorise the Koran, and so even if, in adult life, they leave established religion behind, that early influence stays in them. He showed me a passage in the Koran which, if I remember rightly, says that Christ stepped down from the Cross. 

(remembered in 2021)

I also remember another time when Fr Gresham was indignant at news images of Pope Benedict kissing a copy of the Koran on a visit to an overseas, presumably Muslim, country. In the subsequent conversation Fr Gresham answered my  support of the Pope by replying, "Yes, but he didn't have to kiss it." 

(I have this last episode written up somewhere, but can't find it just now. I am fairly sure I have remembered it correctly.) 

Hinduism, and a Rebuke

(20-04-2004)

I was complaining to Fr Gresham about the face veils worn by young Muslim women at an event I had been to. 

He responded, "That is to protect them from you." I didn't reply, and, in due course, took it as a suitable rebuke. Fr Gresham could be fierce.

At another moment during that visit Fr Gresham said, "Things are so bad now. In India the Hindus are persecuting the Muslims, in Gujarat. There is such intolerance. We always thought the Hindus were such a nice lot, but they are murdering Muslims apparently."

He continued, "Things are so bad now I am looking for a way forward, a sign of better things coming out of this bad time, before I die."

Epiphany

10/07/2003

"A lot can be made of Epiphany. Gold, frankincense and myrrh. Gold for Christ's Kingship, Frankincense for prayer to God, and myrrh for burial."

St Cyprian’s church, Baker St

Jan 99 
Fr Gresham said, "St  Cyprian’s church near Baker Street was a parish of bedsitters. So the priest couldn’t do much visiting. So he used to simply go to the church, get down on his knees and pray.   It was the most prayed-in church in London, I think.  As a result people used to go to him for advice and counselling on spiritual matters. "

"We visited there later, after that priest's time.  A lovely place.  And the people were friendly and welcoming in a quiet way. Not too much talk or too many questions. Just a invitation to a cup of tea in the crypt after the service.  The spirit of the priest lived on in the place."

Christingle and Candlemass

Fr Gresham said, "Christingle was formed in (?)the early 20th century as a Lutheran alternative to Candlemas. Candlemas has simple symbolism, 'Christ is the light of the world', and it is an ancient service. The Christingle service has an orange for the world, a red ribbon is the blood of Christ, sweets or cherries on cocktail sticks are the four corners of the world, east, west etc, and a candle is Christ, the light of the world. This is too complex. When you have to explain symbolism it fails, it doesn't work."

10/07/2003

Father Gresham remembered a sermon for Candlemass preached when he was at Becontree early in his ministry. The Old Testament reading is Malachi - the Lord shall come suddenly to his Temple. In the New Testament in infant Christ is presented at the Temple  - now celebrated at Candlemass. Later he comes again to drive out the money-changers.

The Earth is the Lord's Temple - the Kingdom of God comes.

We are the Lord's Temple. Keeble's hymn, "A temple meet for thee" from 'Blest are the pure in heart'. The Lord comes to us

Saved through the Jews

"In different places in the Old Testament it says that humankind will be saved through the Jews. So Jesus did not know whether to help the centurion, he being a Gentile, until he saw his faith. It may still be, in a way we don't understand, that humankind will be saved through the Jews. They are God's chosen people, though they are not behaving like it at the moment."

And

"Gregory Dix’s chapter (he cites Lowther-Clarke) in ‘The Shape of the Liturgy’ re what’s behind the Gospels, has a strange relationship to the present world. It refers to another writer in the appendix."

 

"Baptism – get this done in order to be confirmed. Confirmation – receive the gift of the Holy Spirit  by laying on of hands. As in Acts.  Someone who is confirmed says and believes and knows the baptism promises."

"Thames used to be wider, slower before embankment was built. It used to freeze. Now more risk of flooding. Southwark Cathedral etc…"