THE ROMAN CATHOLICS AND THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND; ALSO SACRAMENTS

On governing the Church

25/11/2004

Fr Gresham said, "I am not in favour of rule by the majority. I was against the setting-up of the General Synod. If you have a leader you should follow that leader. But you should have a way of getting rid of the leader if he is not up to the job, or if he in some other way makes a mess of things. The Church should be able to get rid of the Archbishop of Canterbury, for instance, if he is doing a bad job."

"It is alright to vote on unimportant things, such as the date of the Christmas bazaar. Well, you go with the majority. Although often the people are so split you can get your own way anyway. But for really important things, then you should work for a consensus, and wait until you can get through to everybody. You aim to reach a common mind, sum up the sense of the meeting."

"There should be diocesan synods. The bishop should know what his clergy and laity are thinking, but it should be the bishop who leads. And the bishops and the Pope should get together to ensure any individual bishop doesn't become heretical in his teachings, innovations or practices. It shouldn't be the Pope deciding things. The bishops and the Pope together should run the Church." 

On Re-Union with Rome 

22/12/2005

Fr Gresham said, "I don't believe in the immaculate conception, papal infallibility or the corporeal assumption of Mary. Dogma that a pope or a council has declared can be reversed. A new belief only comes into being when it is generally accepted by the church at large. That is when a thing becomes true."

"I don't think Forward in Faith (FIF) should be pushing for re-union with Rome at the moment. Rome is in such a mess. Everything is being challenged. FIF shouldn't be trying to re-join the system under the Pope just when Rome itself is challenging and rebelling against that system."

When I asked questions about FIF's wish to re-join Rome, Fr Gresham said, "It is the desire for authority, you see".

18/11/2004

Fr Gresham said, "A Roman Catholic priest from Downside who moved (?)to Westminster or (?)to the CofE said the Churches should unite around the things they can agree on, ie all the things before the split. So Anglicans didn't have to accept Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, or the Corporeal Assumption of Mary into heaven. (This priest) was also emphatic that Anglicans should keep their customs."

Fr Gresham continued, "Anyone who thinks joining the RC's is the answer, ... well, they would be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.  If you read the Tablet you can see they are in as much of a mess as we are. They are waiting for the Pope to die, and he won't."

A mention of Women Priests  

In  a 1992 Parish newsletter Fr K wrote,

"Whatever the outcome of the vote in the November meeting of the General Synod, the Church of England is likely to become involved in a prolonged period of turmoil and unhappiness. That in itself is a reason to devote ourselves to prayer, which alone can convert faith and hope into charity. (Faith and hope are wonderful virtues but can descend into bigotry and shrill determination). But what the debate is really about - issues of authority and obedience - reflects what we believe the Church of England to be, in the past, the present and the future. Are we to be a living part of the Church of God, or merely the English branch of Anglicanism.   ..... it is God we must converse with - and to converse requires us to listen."

In a May 1992 sermon Fr Gresham said,

"And the Church is riven over whether there can be women priests. What is a priest? Why have priests at all? This is a question that is not asked. Why not have administrators and workers and advisors? I mean, there are so many advisors, why not have a few more?"

"The priest is to represent Christ in the Church. And you have to ask if a woman priest can represent the bridegroom, in the relationship between Christ and his Church. I leave you to draw your own conclusions."

From a diary note of a conversation in 2003

Fr Gresham said:-"The Catholic Church is life-affirming, for the whole.  It isn’t protestant, or protesting against something.  If only the Catholic Church would turn its attention to Christ’s coming again, consider that, and what it means.  But failing that it has to dwell upon, get hung up about, women priests, which is a by-way of belief."

(2021 comment:-  Fr Gresham was a member of Forward in Faith. He did not support the ordination of women. He gave one of the reasons for this in a sermon. He said the metaphor of marriage occurs throughout the bible, in both the old and new testaments. In this image, Christ is the groom to his bride the Church. So he asked if a female priest could fulfil this role, when in the Eucharist, at the altar, she represented Christ? 

I subsequently asked him about this argument against female priests based on the metaphor of marriage. He didn't comment on this argument in his reply. Instead he responded by saying that having a female priest presiding at the Eucharist brings doubt into the validity of the sacrament, where there shouldn't be any doubt. 

I think he also said that the Church of England, on its own, without the support of the worldwide Church, did not have the authority to sanction the ordination of women. But from memory I am not sure of this. 

I do, however, remember him saying that the Anglican Church talks about ecumenism and wanting unity with Rome, but then does things to cause disunity (ie ordaining women priests).

Overall, the above contemporaneous note of Fr Gresham mentioning women priests shows his attitude to their ordination, ie he thought it was a "byway of belief". And instead of "getting hung up" about women priests, the Church should be preaching about the Kingdom of God.

He did accept a woman being in charge. As examples of this I remember him instancing Mrs Thatcher as prime minister - though he didn't support her politics - and the Abbess St Hilda as head of her convent. His argument against the ordination of women was theological, based on it introducing a doubt into the validity of the Sacrament.)

A Good Answer

26/02/2004

Fr Gresham said, "A West Indian woman came to church with a letter from her priest which said she is not presently in communion. I wondered for a moment what it meant, then the penny dropped. It meant she was living with a man, not married."

I asked him if she should have been allowed to take communion. At this, Fr Gresham brought his hands together, raised his shoulders, dropped his head and exhaled in a characteristic gesture, as if the question had brought him to a stop. He didn't reply directly. Instead he said something humourous that moved the talk on. 

Perhaps it was boorish to do so, as I already had my answer, really. But I asked again if the woman should have been allowed to receive communion. He responded again in the same non-verbal way.

Catholics and Protestants

07/09/05

"Catholics go for authority and order. So politics of that sort grows more easily together with Catholicism. If an authoritarian government or politics occurs amongst protestants, they are more likely to protest against it."

(from 28/12/05 notes) 
"Luther could be said to have laid the groundwork for Hitler. He preached that it was a sin to disobey your ruler. The ruler's authority was from God. Germany was then split into small states, some Catholic, some Protestant. Luther said the people should have the religion chosen by the ruler. He believed the Pope to be the Anti-Christ. Bishop Christopher Wordsworth, who wrote many of our hymns, also believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ."

(from 03/02/00 notes continued) 
"France is mainly pagan. France has its protestants, it has Calvinists. Napoleon wrote near the end of his life that the best day of his life was taking his first Communion. It made such an impression on him. But he couldn't get back to it. 

Irish and Spanish Catholicism is of a sad sort. The Spanish exploited the South Americans. Spanish churches are loaded with gold. The Spanish didn't treat the South Americans well."

"Did we do anything equivalent in, say, India?" I asked.

"We didn't take religion seriously, you see. There were the child chimney sweeps and the factory workers. But improvements were made by reformers inspired by their protestant faiths. The Roman Catholic view was more that if we keep the Sacraments going, observe the Mass and so on, then nothing much else matters."

30/09/2004

"Three Anglicans were said to be ordained on a ship to become Roman Catholic bishops. Fr Lee was one of them. Another was thought to be Fr Clinton of St Magnus, London Bridge. A mitre was supposed to have been  found in his wardrobe after he had died."

25/11/2004

"The Roman Catholics are in a bigger mess than we are. They have changed from being too uptight to (?) anything goes."

Roman Catholic Catechism

06/04/2006

Fr Gresham said, "In the Catechism there is so much about the Church and about Mary. The emphasis is on the Church all the time, and on Mary."

The Catechism says that the Old Testament is inspired by God.  Fr Gresham commented, "Yes, but they are treating all the books of the Old Testament the same, despite the fact they contain varying amounts of inspiration; some indeed do not have very much."

The Roman See's Foundation

23/02/2006
Fr Gresham said, "The Roman Catholic Collect puts it well, that the Church is founded "on Peter's faith". However the Feast day of Ss Peter & Paul in June makes it clear that both Peter and Paul founded the See of Rome. The Roman Catholic Church conveniently forgets this."

The Ordination Service 

23/02/2006
Fr Gresham said, "Ordination happens during the prayer, then the bishop lays on his hands to indicate to whom it applies. Cranmer wrote out the service. He chose the words applied to Peter and then to the disciples. 'I give you the keys of heaven. What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, & what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven'. Also the prayer says teach the Gospel and perform the sacraments"

Further Sacraments

09/03/2006

Fr Gresham said, "When we are baptised we become inheritors of the Kingdom of Heaven, a member of the body of Christ and a child of God. All people are children of God, but on baptism you become a child of God in a special sense. Also your Godparents promise on your behalf to renounce evil, the devil & all his works, and to obey the commandments of God."

"Anyone can baptise an infant. You pour water on his head and say, 'I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost'.

"The Sacrament of Confirmation bestows the Holy Spirit. This should be done before a person receives Communion, though there are moves to do away with it. The Church of England is the only Christian Church to reserve the Sacrament of Confirmation to the bishop. In the Roman Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church priests can confirm people using oil that has been consecrated by a bishop." When I asked him, Fr Gresham said he thinks that the Church of England has it right.

Fr Gresham explained that the early Church began with the Apostles, and then within months, or a year or so, there were deacons. The Apostles had a roving commission, and the Apostles made bishops in the Christian communities they founded in other cities. These bishops delegated duties to vicars (in place of bishops) or presbyters (elders), but the bishops reserved to themselves the right to ordain more priests/vicars.

Baptism of Desire

28/07/2005
“The Church has always believed in the sacrament of desire.” Fr Gresham raised this in reference to a person who wanted to be baptised, but for good reasons, had not yet been. He added, “In the early Church adults were catechumens for one or two years before they became Christians, before they were baptised. If they died before this happened, they were buried as Christians in a Christian graveyard."

Regarding baptism, he explained, "A child is born into one life, and then is baptised into a new life.”

“A new spiritual life?” I asked, and I think Fr Gresham assented.

He continued, “And if, say, a person wanted to take the Eucharist, but couldn’t because he was in the middle of a desert, or something, then God could reach him in some other way. God is not tied to the sacraments, you see. If we want to take the sacraments but are not able to, then God can reach us in some other way. It is not, though, for us to refuse the sacraments.”

03/03/2005

"Southwark Cathedral has a Sacrament House from a Catholic Apostolic Church."

The Apostolic Succession

09/03/2006
Fr Gresham said, "When the Church of England wanted to join with the Methodists they talked of the 'Historic Succession', but you can do away with all sorts of historic things. But if you call it the 'Apostolic Succession' then that is different."

The Non-Jurors

09/03/2006

Fr Gresham said, "The non-jurors were the best of the Church of England who, having sworn allegiance to James II (Catholic), could not in conscience swear allegiance to William and Mary (Protestants). James II had a son, who had two sons, Bonnie Prince Charlie and another son who became a cardinal in Rome. When he died the Stuarts died out & the non-jurors could then swear allegiance to the Church of England again. The last non-juror bishop died in about (?) 1820. The non-jurors lasted a long time. Keble was brought up in a non-juror household, and so they influenced the Oxford movement."

Charismatic Movements

12/01/2006

Fr Gresham said, "The Charismatic movement is interesting. It began in Wales but then petered out. It was then taken up in the United States. It is about praying in tongues and all that. I think they have it wrong, but it is something to look out for. Kensington Temple is the great place for it in London."

"I would say the Charismatic movement has its roots beginning with John Wesley. He was always looking for signs and wonders. He used to attend services held by priests who came over from France. There was great excitement in those services. These phenomena never happened for him, but he looked for it in others."

"The Quakers came out of the Anabaptists. 'Ana' means again. They would baptise a new entrant again, even if he was baptised as an infant. They believed in adult baptism. But not as a sacrament. They didn't believe anything happened in baptism. They did it as a sign of their belief or identity."

"As Dom Gregory Dix said, it wasn't much of a step for someone who didn't believe anything much happened in baptism to dispense with it altogether, so a group broke away who did without baptism. Quakers do not have any sacraments. When 'Honest to God', by bishop John Robinson, was published saying you couldn't believe in a God 'out there' or 'up there' - more or less an agnostic position - the Quakers said come and join us, we've been saying that all along."

Sacrament-Free Salvation Army

09/02/2006

Fr Gresham said, "A number of those who joined the Salvation Army were from the Methodists, and they wanted the sacraments of the Eucharist and Baptism, which they were accustomed to. But it was Mrs Booth, General Booth's wife, who insisted there be no sacraments. And she cried and cried until she got her way. Those are the facts. It is always a woman who is at the bottom of the mischief. She insisted there be no barrier in the way of salvation for everyone. There would be no baptism, Eucharist etc so that everyone could receive Christ's salvation."

"Those against the sacraments would say Christ's ordinances were not meant for all time."

The Jubilee Group

25/11/2004

"The replacement for the Jubilee Group is about women priests and homosexuality, not about socialism."

(? date)

Fr G quoted someone else who said the future lay with a reformed catholicism, because "the protestant faiths now stood for nothing. They have nothing left to protest about."